You didn't use the sailors anymore. It is important to address how environmental violence has actually increased the situations where outbreaks of epidemics can … It's the same set of strategies—. One was Welcome to America, which, except for the fact that South Africa now has national healthcare, is still true about healthcare in America. It was the Gran Fury Law. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I said, "You know, it would probably be more effective, you know, it wasn't really group therapy, it was a consciousness raising group." CYNTHIA CARR: It says, "During this program, at least six people with AIDS will die. And I was talking to my mom about it, and she said—I said, "He has these fevers, they come and go; he has sinusitis, no one can tell what it's from, they treat him, it comes back," and she said, "There's something wrong with his immune system.''. Wow. We did the AIDSGATE poster. View Avram Finkelstein’s profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: A kiss-in. And had seen in one of their lists, one of the many things listed—Fluxus was, you know, big on lists. It was—but Gran Fury didn't actually become Gran Fury until—it was still an open committee within ACT UP when it first formed. CYNTHIA CARR: They said the poster was being used for recruitment. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, okay. Because I was thinking a lot about—the film Milk sort of ends with a candlelight vigil, but it says nothing about the fact that the first—not the first time queer people rioted, but right after Dan White was given a light sentence, there were riots in San Francisco where they burned cop cars. There was an international demonstration that somebody else made a poster for. So when the Whitney was doing their Image World show, they wanted to use Kissing Doesn't Kill, in the show. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it was the Aperto Section which is, I guess, emerging artists. And it turned into a national coalition, civil disobedience in front of the White House. And then this—and this is exactly what he says—"And then we got a little—he asked us if we would kiss. It was an NYU class. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And they were—it was very well received, I understand. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It's the shape of a cross. He was the person who covered—there was a statue in the Department of Justice, I don't know if it was, you know, the statue of the woman holding the scales, I don't. Oral history interview with Avram Finkelstein, 2016 April 25-May 23 Description 23 sound files (7 hrs.) AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, we did not have a name. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. And that's what we did. I, you know, I really do feel the—it's why I started doing these; I feel like the most—the least useful thing about looking at my body of work is to just look at it. We had no choice but to get involved in the drug approval process. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And had a huge spinning wheel that, you know, had a sort of a sex—sexual game that talked about safe sex. And, apparently, there were people in—who had worked on the window who also agreed with that. I realized that this—the thing that I was being anonymous about; this group might be it. Very interesting artist. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I didn't want a part of anything having to do with the art world. It's so—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —and had given a tremendous amount of thought to whether we wanted to use it, and what it would mean to use it, and how we could use it. And, in fact, after the window came down, that following year at the Gay Pride March, ACT UP chose Let the Record Show as the theme of their marching presence. Or what are you asking people to do? It was about safe sex. And it wasn't exactly that they disagreed with it. I give an overview in the first section. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, it was a—it was a dangerous thing to do. So I started thinking, well what would it be like if I knew the Mona Lisa was going to be burned the second after I left the room, would I have a different experience? Now, I actually brought this [book] in, because 1990 was such a hot year for people in the general public to attack artists. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The Keith Haring Pop Shop. Maybe it won't. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And there were serious conversations about internment and segregation of people with HIV. It was a very particular set of ideas about what political engagement might be and this poster was very capacious and Lou had no idea what to make of it. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah, so you were doing a more professional approach. It doesn't talk about—it completely throws a cloak of invisibility over HIV criminalization cases where there were people in America in jail for 20 years because they've been accused by someone of knowingly exposing them to HIV, even if they haven't been—haven't contracted the virus. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But it's about class and race and gender. It was a trip when I went to visit one of my oldest friends from New York who had moved to San Francisco to enter the Compound Q trials, and decided to stay. And we basically—the area of lower Manhattan where the New Museum was, was originally a mixed class, working class area. She did the Gran Fury. Okay. It's—it was—it would be too embarrassing." And, at the exact same moment that we were constructing this AIDS and Homophobia Day, Tom came in and he said—he reminded us that George Bush Sr. had just begun using the phrase, "Read my lips," in his stump speeches for his presidential run. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was all in the same period of time. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But it basically said—it gave a list of stats. But I think it really is more about questions of strategic thinking. And if you look at the history of art as we are presented it, it does not privilege social engagement. And he organized the window and invited me back in to ask if they could use Silence = Death and make a neon sign of it. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. Yeah. And what was that project? CYNTHIA CARR: Oh, she was in your affinity group, okay. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But if you consider having been asked to censor that, our first public commission in the States, having been asked to censor it by AMFAR, the American Foundation for AIDS Research. And Mark Harrington, who was—went on to form TAG, Treatment Action Group—was in Gran Fury at that point in time. We immediately went to Avram Finkelstein who has a wealth of experience with working in collectives on public health topics. And the ingenuity involved —I think is instructive— because literally for under $30 we seized the voice of authority. So of course it had the value that the collective imagined it would have. and I saw someone with this image on a T-shirt. Like, what if there had never been an ACT UP? I was voted one of the first two at-large members with Eric Sawyer who is now the community liaison for UNAIDS, and I was in the logistics committee, but I also did work with fundraising because I did the button project and we worked with the fundraising committee to do the T-shirts, and Chris and I—Chris's next door neighbor was a fashion rep and Chris's brother worked in her showroom, so we were the ones who sourced the T-shirts and I don't know if we found the printer. And, in fact, we—rather than using the boardroom image we had a handshake deal in front of the Saatchi & Saatchi Building—as another way to indicate it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —who had been at MoMA, who nominated us. And it was closer to Long Island, if you didn't feel like driving all the way to the city, so we went to the Brooklyn Museum all the time. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And that was late '87. DiCorcia, of course. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So except for the fact that it had a panel on the side saying, "Art Against AIDS On the Road," there would be no connection within the piece to identify that it was even about AIDS. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I was involved in the affinity group that was doing—that was at war with Stephen Joseph and in Gran Fury and so was Mark Harrington. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But we felt like we didn't have any choice. So they were, all of those design decisions were a part of this sort of sleight of hand of who produced it, what it's for, and what its saying. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah, uh-huh [Affirmative]. And then, in the background, was a very large photo mural of the Nuremberg Trials that were lit in a slightly warm light. Digital printing on fabricEight panels, 96”x96” each. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But then after protease inhibitors, what does it mean to then be a part of institutional systems that don't necessarily have a political end? I don't know what business model that comes out of, but that's the way it was. And I said, "Anyone interested, meet me in the back corner of the room." Collectives are organisms. But we became aware that CISPES, the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador, had done a fakeNew York Times just before we decided to do this—and were taken to court by the Times. Okay, this is Cynthia Carr interviewing Avram Finkelstein at his home and studio in Brooklyn, New York, on May 23, 2016, for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, and this is card number three. My mother thinks I was born in Brooklyn, my sister thinks I was born in Queens. CYNTHIA CARR: There. So they're helping with the dissemination piece of it. CYNTHIA CARR: You had already read about this, you know, what they were then calling gay cancer in The Native? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Tattooing IV drug users, and sex partners of IV drug users. You know, we took him to Bellevue, he couldn't breathe, and after—there was no test for HIV and they basically they told me that he had AIDS, but I didn't believe them, and they couldn't say what was going to happen to him. CYNTHIA CARR: Well, this is an end. And then I think he got Nan into school. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —and in a way, very indirect, I think. I didn't go, so that's part of the reason I only have a vague recollection. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And we did, I think, about five projects total. If you saw a sticker, you would put another one next to it, and it was right at the beginning of ATMs—that was a new thing. The newspaper was painted with house paint. So the smaller text was for the intimate encounter. CYNTHIA CARR: In '89, the culture war started with the attacks on Serrano and Mapplethorpe. You know, it—and the reason I'm saying this is, I feel like it might give insights into how ACT UP functioned as a community. ], AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: That's me banging my head against the wall in case this is—. It paints a counter-narrative that I think is really important to understand. They came out of the same gesture of the map of the hand. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I think also—you know if you think about the—Men Use Condoms or Beat It— that was a full year before The New York Timespublished their article, ''Why Make AIDS Worse Than It Is?'' It's all of identity, healthcare, social spaces. Finally, We’re Here For You ponders the meaning of a proliferate contemporary advertising phrase and its relationship to pandemic preparedness and commercial responses in late-capitalism. Or, how did I change because of the AIDS crisis? We—the header for the Tumblr page was a close-up from the movie Gone Girl of the woman on the pillow, the female protagonist, a close-up of the pillow, and it was right at the moment the movie was released, so it sort of opened up all these questions about what gender meant in a complex way, and then it had some very wonky stuff about access and an explanation of the feminist movement and how reproductive justice—people who think about this sort of the thing came to the idea of reproductive justice. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I moved actually to Long Island to—when my dad—we put my dad in assisted living. Was it going to be put on the street, or—. There were a lot of them, right?" AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We stole Barbara Kruger's typeface, for Read My Lips. But it's possible we had—for a short period of time we had an arrangement with ACT UP where we would get a percentage of proceeds from the sale of Gran Fury T-shirts as operating expenses. CYNTHIA CARR: What did that piece look like? And, in fact, it wasn't—we did this poster in spring of 1988, it would've been. We were invited back to—. It was bad. I would probably say, it would be more accurate to say, that Gran Fury could never have existed without the research wing of ACT UP, so, in a way, we were wholly dependent on activists, researchers, policy people, journalists, healthcare workers. We sort of—this project is about corporate—you know, the corporatization of queer identity, and this was a way to sort of—each color was meant to represent a specific thing, and we wanted to reimagine those things in the present and talk about current issues, trans issues, and questions of mass incarceration, sort of weave them back into our version of what the rainbow flag could and should be. Unfortunately, I sent my papers to NYU and I had a journal in it, and the journal has the notes from these sessions. I see. This could happen. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The head scarf is a portrait of my sister and my mother. I worked with Tom Kalin and Mark Harrington—and Don Moffett I think was in and out of that on the Read My Lips poster. People who make visual work are very—I wouldn't say they're loathe to participate. CYNTHIA CARR: Mm-hmm. I was so excited by that project. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I sort of see a connection between the self-deprecating humor of the Yiddish theater—and a lot of this sort of queer in-jokes that came out of ACT UP. It was all happening around the same time. Basically, the larger social questions were not things that we prioritized within the activist movement; there were many people doing work around them, but because people were literally sliding through our fingers like sand, there were equally as many people who didn't want to get involved in larger questions. So yeah, so I was very precocious. So in your meeting, you decided on this image, and commissioned a photographer, or maybe one of you took the picture, or—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: — to share the access we were getting to the art world. It's completely devoid of context, and I feel that it was never meant to have meaning in a gallery setting and consequently it doesn't. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. Avram Finkelstein is an artist, activist and writer living in Brooklyn, and a founding member of the Silence=Death and Gran Fury collectives, and is featured in the artist oral history project at the Smithsonian’s Archives of American Art. It's a way to speak in a very concentrated—to a very concentrated—specific, but concentrated audience that's multi-class, multi-gender, multi-identity. And I was a pretty good painter by the time I was in—I was kind of a photorealist painter by the time I was in high school. Part of it is mess-making, and I've had some—some people have hosted Flash Collectives, and I tend to—Nayland Blake, the artist—who's a friend of mine, who comes out of a similar idea about creative spaces that's based in part on mess-making. And we did in—logistic checks to find out when the trucks came to replace yesterday's papers with todays. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Or three days depending on how you count. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah, I think so at some point, yeah. It's like right up there with Women Don't Get AIDS, They Just Die from It. And that—so that was your affinity group not Gran Fury. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Sure. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And that was a very lengthy project. So there's no eradication of HIV/AIDS without eradicating stigma, criminalization, transphobia, racism, and misogyny. Commissioned by Tinworks Art. But we didn't—That project didn't happen until the following year, but it was based on Read My Lips. It's like—and there's no way to gauge the effect of it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I didn't work on Wall Street Money. CYNTHIA CARR: The Justice Department, yes. So I pretty much knew the permanent collections of the Whitney, the Museum of Modern Art, the Brooklyn Museum, the Museum of American Indian; by the time I was a young, you know, a tween, I knew every painting and would go straight for the ones I loved. And there was a photographer from the east coast and his assistant, who were in LA shooting, who had come down to San Diego to go to the bars. Yeah, the Times—just because I was very involved in covering the culture war at that same period they did a terrible job of covering that as well, CYNTHIA CARR: It was—so that working for a weekly, I was actually able to break news, even—they should have beaten me [laughs]. And he held it up. It was this egalitarian petting zoo where it was meant to replicate the way social spaces function, but that isn't the way social spaces function. The cable news cycle had just started, literally within minutes after ACT UP. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. 108. CYNTHIA CARR: But Ed Meese had the whole, what, the Porn Commission that he set up. It was Pawel Althamer's Draftsmen's Congress, I think was the name of the project. And we came up with Kissing Doesn't Kill, and we purposefully made it look as close to a Benetton ad as we could. And then what does it mean to emphasize this, and you know, doesn't it, in fact, sort of drive a wedge between people as opposed to helping us understand how to actually deal with this epidemic? And, you know, I think it's an area of huge concern for me, HIV criminalization, because it's—I think of it as one of the ideas that we left on the battlefield. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, I've done about—I've done almost 20 of them now. I think so many people felt embattled in those years and—. Home, however, has a different set of implications for queer people, who are frequently estranged by familial homophobia. And above that kiosk, which up until this last year, the fruit stand, which has been there forever. She got a copy to Bill Bahlman from the Lavender Hill Mob, who then gave it to me. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, that's a very—that's one story arc that really suits the idea of participation in democracy, as opposed to resistance. So I became obsessed with atonal music when I was like 10. I think it would have been probably a month or so, surrounding the opening of the show. CYNTHIA CARR: Mm-hmm. And we went to all the various caucuses in ACT UP, people doing around—work around prison, people doing work around IVDU, women and AIDS, mass incarceration. He did studio visits on behalf of two designers, one of whom worked at Knoll, who was one of our closest family friends. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So we did a series of obvious gestures to make sure it was a parody like renaming it The New York Crimes. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Charles Kreloff is the son of Bea Kreloff who started the feminist seders, and he was raised in a lesbian separatist household, so he also came from an extremely political background. and he said, "You know, it's funny you should say that because I'm not aware of it, but I think that I frequently look for clues about the present in the past.". And then—but this poster with the—there's a bloody handprint. And I didn't want any part of it, to be honest with you, because of my Situationist critique of museums. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But I do think there's a correlation in the following way. And you know, there again, if you read it and you look through what we're asking, or suggesting, it's actually—it's very didactic, it's very flat-footed. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: New Yorkers used the subway and this was going to be above ground so this wouldn't be for that audience and that's why we planted it in the lesbian and gay community and also in areas where people in publishing lived and worked. It was the slogan, and as a consequence, in order to be visible, the letters had to be very tall, but the space was quite narrow so both—I think it was Charles and Oliver—I think Charles suggested Gil Sans Serif, and Oliver said, "Extra Condensed, so it would be super tall and fill the poster," but there was, in graphic design, there was something called kerning, which is the space between letters, because it was a super condensed font and the kerning was very tight after we produced the poster and ACT UPs—you know, there was a community of activists and I started getting feedback about the poster. But the thing about ACT UP in general, and about Gran Fury in particular, if you look at this body of work, much of it happened during that first six months to a year. Avram Finkelstein : biography – Avram Finkelstein is an artist, writer, gay rights activist, and member of the AIDS art collective Gran Fury. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No. Anyway, you thought of these—they're all questions that have to do with each color in the flag. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I also formed from my affinity group another collective called Anonymous Queers. It was a reproduction of a May '68 French student poster and that was in the show. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah, we don't have the date on it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Well we hadn't decided there was going to be a black poster. So we used that as a way to talk about whose history survives, so in the yellow band it says, "Whose history survives?" ACTING UP WITH AVRAM FINKELSTEIN Good Trouble. And its scenes—it's all sort of done as sort of a late-30's social-realist style—. So when we were offered this, we thought, at the time, for people who were not around then, there was a chain of apparel, there was an apparel company that had a chain of stores called The United Colors of Benetton. Know this is not an easy thing to do with cultural production the. Work is riddled with art world, and they had marked this—they reinterpreted! I wrote a piece on the way from the person everyone loved a largely Jewish organization the! People doing work around came out of the hand collages were newspapers that were not getting reported n't taking at! Bus shelters in— it was compounded by the time, and the women 's committee on the ground he! With Heidi Dorrow, and flatfooted, but it was an ad for record! Room full of people who make Visual work are very—I would n't have the date on it. 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